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> Government shutdown, Should the Government be shutdown
M4dRefluX
post Apr 15 2011, 09:08 AM
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Why can't our wonderful, and beloved congressmen come out, and let loose as to what their ulterior motive is? All their ideas are stripped of intellectual goodness (if you can call it that), and packaged down into catchy-sounding slogans that are shoved down peoples throats through advertising on prime-time television. No wonder so many folks are ignorant. Well I can't blame them, who has time?

I am deathly sick of folks, over and over, saying that the poor and elderly folks are the ones making this country broke. Actually, no. It's the "job makers" getting all the breaks. They're the ones making this county broke, not us.

I mean, come on, what is with this logic? Where the rich, with their huge estates, million dollar homes, expensive yachts, and cars should get all the tax breaks, because, you know, they are the "job creators", right?

And please, for the love of God, don't say they are taxed to death!

Where's the fellow who reiterated ad nauseum that the good ole' US of A has the highest corporate tax? Well I've got news for him.

Why in the heck would you folks want the government to shutdown anyways? Aren't we the ones paying the taxes, and the Medicare/SS tax? Don't we deserve our government services, and Social Security?

My lord, I need to stop. I'm getting *bleep*ed off way too early today. I'm sure this thread will be closed/deleted soon just because I posted in it, and if not, will be accused of plagiarism. rolleyes.gif


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raughammer
post Apr 15 2011, 10:30 AM
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That would be me you were referring to who said America has the highest corporate tax rate in the world.

I notice the company you chose to highlight that got off scott free from paying taxes is G.E.
Just in case you missed it:

Obama jobs chief -- the CEO of GE -- pays no corporate taxes
http://content.usatoday.com/communities/th...rporate-taxes/1

But back to the majority of other companies that do not have a president in their back pocket:
America to have the highest corporate tax rate in April
The world’s superpower is about to lead the way in yet another realm. Next month, America is set to bear the distinction of having the highest corporate tax rate in the industrialized world.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/dailycaller/201103...etaxrateinapril



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M4dRefluX
post Apr 15 2011, 02:04 PM
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QUOTE(raughammer @ Apr 15 2011, 11:30 AM) *
That would be me you were referring to who said America has the highest corporate tax rate in the world.

I notice the company you chose to highlight that got off scott free from paying taxes is G.E.
Just in case you missed it:

Obama jobs chief -- the CEO of GE -- pays no corporate taxes
http://content.usatoday.com/communities/th...rporate-taxes/1

But back to the majority of other companies that do not have a president in their back pocket:
America to have the highest corporate tax rate in April
The world’s superpower is about to lead the way in yet another realm. Next month, America is set to bear the distinction of having the highest corporate tax rate in the industrialized world.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/dailycaller/201103...etaxrateinapril

My oh my.


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jacksonville
post Apr 16 2011, 09:17 AM
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QUOTE(M4dRefluX @ Apr 15 2011, 03:04 PM) *

Long time no hear my young friend.
The problem is not really taxes, the problem is spending. About 48% of working people do not pay any fed tax at all. You say the poor and the ederly are not responsible for our problem, I disagree. The poor, for the most part are poor because of poor decisions made by them and their parents, not finishing school, having children out of wedlock and just plain too many children, do not have children you can't afford. Some of the elderly fall into the poor decision part, the disabled are a different story completely, they should be helped. Social Security has become a massive welfare program not a program to " supliment " your retirement plan. It was not intended to be the only source of income. The rich pay 90% of all taxes payed.
The tax system is wrong, The Fair Tax, look it up.
Government is too large, massive pension obligations.
No energy policy, we could be free of all foreign oil if we drilled our own, used natural gas, nuclear etc forget ethenal it doesn't work power wise or fiscally

Politicians are almost useless, both parties are too blame, many terms back.
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wingsovernc
post Apr 16 2011, 09:23 AM
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QUOTE(jacksonville @ Apr 16 2011, 10:17 AM) *
Long time no hear my young friend.
The problem is not really taxes, the problem is spending. About 48% of working people do not pay any fed tax at all. You say the poor and the ederly are not responsible for our problem, I disagree. The poor, for the most part are poor because of poor decisions made by them and their parents, not finishing school, having children out of wedlock and just plain too many children, do not have children you can't afford. Some of the elderly fall into the poor decision part, the disabled are a different story completely, they should be helped. Social Security has become a massive welfare program not a program to " supliment " your retirement plan. It was not intended to be the only source of income. The rich pay 90% of all taxes payed.
The tax system is wrong, The Fair Tax, look it up.
Government is too large, massive pension obligations.
No energy policy, we could be free of all foreign oil if we drilled our own, used natural gas, nuclear etc forget ethenal it doesn't work power wise or fiscally

Politicians are almost useless, both parties are too blame, many terms back.



Is this turning into the "Let's see how many face-palms I can get" thread? mad.gif rolleyes.gif
Sorry jacksonville but I think ur gonna get one!

Just trying to introduce a little levity in here...izzat ok? huh.gif I feel it's going to need it
before too long... dry.gif


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Cracker
post Apr 17 2011, 01:29 AM
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QUOTE(wingsovernc @ Apr 16 2011, 10:23 AM) *
Is this turning into the "Let's see how many face-palms I can get" thread? mad.gif rolleyes.gif
Sorry jacksonville but I think ur gonna get one!

Just trying to introduce a little levity in here...izzat ok? huh.gif I feel it's going to need it
before too long... dry.gif


I think you are right, Wings.

I am poor.
I pay taxes.
I have no children.
I have missed 1 day of work in the last 5 yrs. (probably longer)
I am not amused.




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Apologistnky
post Apr 17 2011, 05:10 AM
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QUOTE(Cracker @ Apr 17 2011, 01:29 AM) *
I think you are right, Wings.

I am poor.
I pay taxes.
I have no children.
I have missed 1 day of work in the last 5 yrs. (probably longer)
I am not amused.


*Apolo in his best compassionate, Presidental voice: "I feel your pain. My fellow mutants...er, I mean Americans....I feel your pain." tongue.gif


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M4dRefluX
post Apr 17 2011, 10:33 AM
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QUOTE(jacksonville @ Apr 16 2011, 10:17 AM) *
Long time no hear my young friend.
The problem is not really taxes, the problem is spending. About 48% of working people do not pay any fed tax at all. You say the poor and the ederly are not responsible for our problem, I disagree. The poor, for the most part are poor because of poor decisions made by them and their parents, not finishing school, having children out of wedlock and just plain too many children, do not have children you can't afford. Some of the elderly fall into the poor decision part, the disabled are a different story completely, they should be helped. Social Security has become a massive welfare program not a program to " supliment " your retirement plan. It was not intended to be the only source of income. The rich pay 90% of all taxes payed.
The tax system is wrong, The Fair Tax, look it up.
Government is too large, massive pension obligations.
No energy policy, we could be free of all foreign oil if we drilled our own, used natural gas, nuclear etc forget ethenal it doesn't work power wise or fiscally

Politicians are almost useless, both parties are too blame, many terms back.

Just where are you getting your statistics from? A weird, and mysterious vibe tells me Fox News.

Anyways, I'll let my good man, David Leonhardt counter that for ya. biggrin.gif

Oh, and everyone pays the same Social Security, and Medicare rates regardless of income. Yet, conservatives are still complaining. So how could something like the Fair Tax make everyone happy? Everyone pays into the system, so why are we to not deserve it when the time comes?

Also, here is where the difference in philosophy comes in. Conservatives supposedly believe in social mobility with hard work, and good planning. That couldn't be farther from the truth. They mainly believe in Social Darwinism. Social mobility is low in this country. FDR realized this. He envisioned society as a community rather than a collection of competing individuals.

Their policies have already been tested thoroughly in the real world. Deregulation of the financial sector, which was once protected by the Glass-Steagall Act, brought on a economic crisis. To maky a long story short, banks took capital from securities sold to investors (CDOs), and gambled it on bad loans. Under the Glass-Steagall Act, this sort of thing would have never happened since it outlawed traditional depository banks from engaging in risky investment activities. I'd go into more details, but there's plenty of information out there.

"Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires." - John Steinbeck


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jacksonville
post Apr 17 2011, 11:39 AM
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QUOTE(M4dRefluX @ Apr 17 2011, 11:33 AM) *
Just where are you getting your statistics from? A weird, and mysterious vibe tells me Fox News.

Anyways, I'll let my good man, David Leonhardt counter that for ya. biggrin.gif

Oh, and everyone pays the same Social Security, and Medicare rates regardless of income. Yet, conservatives are still complaining. So how could something like the Fair Tax make everyone happy? Everyone pays into the system, so why are we to not deserve it when the time comes?

Also, here is where the difference in philosophy comes in. Conservatives supposedly believe in social mobility with hard work, and good planning. That couldn't be farther from the truth. They mainly believe in Social Darwinism. Social mobility is low in this country. FDR realized this. He envisioned society as a community rather than a collection of competing individuals.

Their policies have already been tested thoroughly in the real world. Deregulation of the financial sector, which was once protected by the Glass-Steagall Act, brought on a economic crisis. To maky a long story short, banks took capital from securities sold to investors (CDOs), and gambled it on bad loans. Under the Glass-Steagall Act, this sort of thing would have never happened since it outlawed traditional depository banks from engaging in risky investment activities. I'd go into more details, but there's plenty of information out there.

"Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires." - John Steinbeck


Read the Fair Tax book before you brush it off. You willnot lose anything you already earned.
NAME one place where Socialism has worked.

Also I am not rich, somewhere in the middle of the middle class. I did not attend college but have worked all my life and I have saved some money in addition to SS. I'll be ok during retirement unless the gov takes more from me to give to someone else who didn't earn it.

This post has been edited by jacksonville: Apr 17 2011, 12:02 PM
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M4dRefluX
post Apr 17 2011, 05:19 PM
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QUOTE(jacksonville @ Apr 17 2011, 12:39 PM) *
Read the Fair Tax book before you brush it off. You willnot lose anything you already earned.
NAME one place where Socialism has worked.

Also I am not rich, somewhere in the middle of the middle class. I did not attend college but have worked all my life and I have saved some money in addition to SS. I'll be ok during retirement unless the gov takes more from me to give to someone else who didn't earn it.

Too many folks are blaming high taxes, and regulation for our financial crisis. It is not that simple.

Nothing like that is going to solve the problems we face today. The country was much more prosperous when taxes were high. Just take a look at history. Top tier rates used to be >90%. The top tier rate as of right now is 35% I believe.

Look man, I have no idea why you, and many others are touting an ideology that doesn't benefit you whatsoever, and the majority of folks in this nation. It puzzles me, but people are free to believe in what they want to.

This post has been edited by M4dRefluX: Apr 17 2011, 05:21 PM


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CMeyers
post Apr 18 2011, 02:20 AM
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QUOTE(M4dRefluX @ Apr 17 2011, 06:19 PM) *
Too many folks are blaming high taxes, and regulation for our financial crisis. It is not that simple.

Nothing like that is going to solve the problems we face today. The country was much more prosperous when taxes were high. Just take a look at history. Top tier rates used to be >90%. The top tier rate as of right now is 35% I believe.

Look man, I have no idea why you, and many others are touting an ideology that doesn't benefit you whatsoever, and the majority of folks in this nation. It puzzles me, but people are free to believe in what they want to.


The top rates are misleading. That's just the marginal rate on the next dollar earned, not an average tax rate.

I fall into the "you and many others" category. We tout such an ideology that doesn't benefit us (in your opinion) because we believe it's right. My opinion is not shaped by what policy gives me the most money free of charge and what takes the most from others. Personally I believe that my ideology does benefit me. Greatly in fact. It doesn't do it by giving me money stolen from someone else, but by promoting what is right.


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Removed_Member_idecline_*
post Apr 18 2011, 02:42 AM
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QUOTE(M4dRefluX @ Apr 17 2011, 10:33 AM) *
"Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires." - John Steinbeck


'nuff said
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Cracker
post Apr 18 2011, 02:40 AM
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QUOTE(idecline @ Apr 18 2011, 03:42 AM) *
'nuff said

man, am I embarassed! tongue.gif


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M4dRefluX
post Apr 18 2011, 10:29 AM
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QUOTE(CMeyers @ Apr 18 2011, 03:20 AM) *
The top rates are misleading. That's just the marginal rate on the next dollar earned, not an average tax rate.

I fall into the "you and many others" category. We tout such an ideology that doesn't benefit us (in your opinion) because we believe it's right. My opinion is not shaped by what policy gives me the most money free of charge and what takes the most from others. Personally I believe that my ideology does benefit me. Greatly in fact. It doesn't do it by giving me money stolen from someone else, but by promoting what is right.

Actually, socialistic ideals does benefit you, and many others. All economies are socialistic, even capitalism.

I'm sure you've went through a public school system, and went to a public university that's funded with tax dollars. If not, they majority did. If you are a hiring manager, or an owner of a business. Most of your employees probably were brought up through public education. I don't call that stealing. I call it investment.

How are businesses to have a stable workforce to hire from if they're not educated?

You show me how someone can make it completely on their own, with no help from anyone. I don't think many people here would last long if they were the only human left on the planet.

This post has been edited by M4dRefluX: Apr 18 2011, 10:36 AM


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CMeyers
post Apr 18 2011, 10:47 AM
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QUOTE(M4dRefluX @ Apr 18 2011, 11:29 AM) *
Actually, socialistic ideals does benefit you, and many others. All economies are socialistic, even capitalism.

I'm sure you've went through a public school system, and went to a public university that's funded with tax dollars. If not, they majority did. If you are a hiring manager, or an owner of a business. Most of your employees probably were brought up through public education. I don't call that stealing. I call it investment.

How are businesses to have a stable workforce to hire from if they're not educated?

You show me how someone can make it completely on their own, with no help from anyone. I don't think many people here would last long if they were the only human left on the planet.

Private education would work just as well as public, it was just snuffed out by public funding. But, that's besides the point anyway. I don't advocate no taxes or no services or no public education (though I do think if we had went a route of private education it would have worked better). I don't know how you manage to equate capitalism with a lack of education. That's a fool's line of thought if I've ever heard one.

Oh, and regarding the top marginal tax rate level, one more thing. The fact that the economy was prosperous while we were busy taking 9 out of every 10 dollars from the next dollar earned for the top bracket was not the reason we were prosperous. Just because you can do something (such as tax the rich at exceptionally high rates) does not mean it's the right thing to do.

This post has been edited by CMeyers: Apr 18 2011, 11:07 AM


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Papa_Bear
post Apr 18 2011, 01:19 PM
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well if the government makes cuts starting within the government we may be better off but cutting things like education is not helping but hurting...as I said before our government cares only for themselves...we will be in bigger debt within the next 10 yrs..

But obama still takes his vacations I guess ruining a country can be tiring and he needs a break


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post Apr 19 2011, 01:51 AM
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QUOTE(Papa_Bear @ Apr 18 2011, 01:19 PM) *
well if the government makes cuts starting within the government we may be better off but cutting things like education is not helping but hurting...as I said before our government cares only for themselves...we will be in bigger debt within the next 10 yrs..

But obama still takes his vacations I guess ruining a country can be tiring and he needs a break


Economic problems started right after WWII....any country who's economy is based on a war machine and the purchase and building of automobiles is bound to have problems as the world becomes more 'modern'. We have set an example for the rest of the world to also have disfunctional economies...consumerism is empty and does provide 'real' goods nor human satisfaction...it is entertainment for wealthy people....and I mean all 'modern' countries that have 'modern' conveniences.

Americans have done this to themselves..with isolationist policies...over-consuming...and a general sense of entitlement....worst of all community does not exist like it used to...many people could care less about their neighbors or their fellow Americans....shame on us.
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cavalier
post Apr 19 2011, 07:00 AM
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QUOTE(M4dRefluX @ Apr 15 2011, 09:08 AM) *
I am deathly sick of folks, over and over, saying that the poor and elderly folks are the ones making this country broke. Actually, no. It's the "job makers" getting all the breaks. They're the ones making this county broke, not us.

I mean, come on, what is with this logic? Where the rich, with their huge estates, million dollar homes, expensive yachts, and cars should get all the tax breaks, because, you know, they are the "job creators", right?


The top 5% of wage earners pay around 53% of the federal income tax collected. even if you repealed the bush tax cuts, it would not make much of a difference as far as the federal deficit is concerned. there just aren't enough rich people around. not only would it not make much of a difference but it would severely impact the workforce. you can't think in just multibillion dollar companies, because it will affect much more than that. small business owners will also feel the impact of those raised taxes. most small business owners report their business income on their taxes, and they have to report their gross income. it is not very hard for them to reach that 200k - 250k threshold. Not every small business owner is super rich. If these people get over taxed, they can't hire more workers, they can't expand their business, their prices may go up to help cover their tax burden.

It would be a huge detriment to our economy, and all to shave maybe a few billion dollars off the federal deficit? or is it not that at all? is it about "fairness"? its not fair they make more money than we do? don't get me wrong i think what GE got away with is terrible, bu raising taxes isn't the answer reform is the answer, but its almost impossible to do because there is just too much power involved in the tax system.


Its pretty much impossible to balance the federal budget without major cuts/reform to the two biggest money holes Social Security and medicare.

This post has been edited by cavalier: Apr 19 2011, 06:59 AM
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Papa_Bear
post Apr 19 2011, 12:17 PM
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QUOTE(idecline @ Apr 19 2011, 01:51 AM) *
Economic problems started right after WWII....any country who's economy is based on a war machine and the purchase and building of automobiles is bound to have problems as the world becomes more 'modern'. We have set an example for the rest of the world to also have disfunctional economies...consumerism is empty and does provide 'real' goods nor human satisfaction...it is entertainment for wealthy people....and I mean all 'modern' countries that have 'modern' conveniences.

Americans have done this to themselves..with isolationist policies...over-consuming...and a general sense of entitlement....worst of all community does not exist like it used to...many people could care less about their neighbors or their fellow Americans....shame on us.

I remember when I was a kind all the neighbors knew each other..we hung out with the kids on several blocks, the neighbors watched out for each others kids...we had block parties.....yup no more...times have certainly changed

tuition keeps going up for colleges....soon the only people who would be able to afford an education id the wealthy....kids are being given IPADS! in kinddy garden....WTF happened to handwriting?....


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2007cobalt
post Apr 19 2011, 03:38 PM
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Welcome to the United Socialist Fascist ( look up the definition if you disagree ) States of America.

The government dosent have to shutdown if they would quit acting silly and just do the job we pay them to do. The whole "shutdown" thing is just a temper tantrum anyway , from a bunch of our leaders who should know better.

The wealthy of this country should pay higher taxes. 250,000 is chump change to someone worth millions and they shouldnt even miss it. Its the price they should pay to be living so high on the hog. More taxes could be collected from the fewer wealthy than could ever be collected from the lower and middle class masses anyway.

The poor of this country are not the reason for the mess we are in , unless you count all the socialist programs given out by THE GOVERNMENT in order to win votes. Big business and the wealthy are the main reason for the economic mess , with all the huge tax breaks , shelters , and programs designed to help them hold on to their money. I could also add in all the money paid to elected officials even after their term is over , and free healthcare for life. Our elected officials need to go back to working for a living as a regular citizen when they are done , that would not only save money but teach them to look out for the simple man while in office because they will be back to being one soon.
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