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> Money supply..., Just curious to see some opinions here
CMeyers
post Jan 9 2012, 02:53 PM
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So, the popular opinion of the moment is generally that the national debt is too large. More importantly, that politicians should be focused on shrinking that debt. The end-game of that idea would be a national debt of 0. Do you feel that would be an ideal goal? And also, what do you think would be the effect of that on the economy? Just curious to see some opinions...


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Beck
post Jan 9 2012, 06:13 PM
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Truthfully, and please everybody, don't take this as pessimism - I don't think it will ever go away. It's inevitable that it has become as large as it has, and, like gas prices - it's not gonna go back to the way it was before. America is on a gradual downward path now, and has been since the 1980s. It became steeper in 2003 with the Iraq War. Again, not trying to be pessimistic or fatalistic. But all great empires must fall, that's not something that's thousands (or even hundreds) of years into the future. Our society was not built to last, so what's happening now is happening.

But please everybody, feel free to share your ideas on "the debt crisis". The above is just what has been shown to me and my conclusions.


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Normal to-date precipitation: 0.78"
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QUOTE(wingsovernc @ Sep 13 2014, 04:20 PM) *
You're cute when you're whining Becky :)
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Maw
post Jan 10 2012, 08:57 AM
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When was the last time that the United States had NO federal debt to speak of? 1830s???

I have MUCH bigger fish to fry.

This post has been edited by Maw: Jan 10 2012, 08:58 AM


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mmi16
post Jan 10 2012, 09:06 AM
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National Debt - political talking point which is much ado about very little....as has been most of the political bluster over the past decade.

We are only safe from insanity when Congress and the State Legislatures are NOT in session as when the go in session the insane grandstanding begins.


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Maw
post Jan 10 2012, 11:38 AM
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QUOTE(mmi16 @ Jan 10 2012, 09:06 AM) *
National Debt - political talking point which is much ado about very little....as has been most of the political bluster over the past decade.

We are only safe from insanity when Congress and the State Legislatures are NOT in session as when the go in session the insane grandstanding begins.


"The insane grandstanding begins" = should be the sign over the entrance of each legislative branch, both federal and state.


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Nicole
post Jan 10 2012, 12:53 PM
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QUOTE(Maw @ Jan 10 2012, 11:38 AM) *
"The insane grandstanding begins" = should be the sign over the entrance of each legislative branch, both federal and state.



I LOVE your profile picture!!


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Maw
post Jan 10 2012, 01:25 PM
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QUOTE(Nicole @ Jan 10 2012, 12:53 PM) *
I LOVE your profile picture!!


Well thanks, Nicole! smile.gif


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CMeyers
post Jan 10 2012, 02:20 PM
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QUOTE(Maw @ Jan 10 2012, 08:57 AM) *
When was the last time that the United States had NO federal debt to speak of? 1830s???

I have MUCH bigger fish to fry.

Roughly 1863 which is when the National Banking Act was passed. That act began the practice of the government issuing bonds which were bought by banks (and the public) and were officially recognized as legal tender for all transactions. Prior to that point bonds couldn't be counted on, or used, to pay taxes or other such fees to the government. They were legal tender for other things though. Banks loved that (as it was their plan to begin with) and so did the government (it meant financing things like wars was simple). Money creation hit a new high and has continued to this day. Unfortunately the meaning of this is that the money supply has expanded based PURELY on the creation of government debts and bonds. Our ENTIRE money supply is based off government bonds. All of it. If the government were to pay off all its bonds, that is to say; all its debts, the money supply would cease to exist. It would end our economy.

Just a quick and interesting point about the dangers and evils of letting a government create fiat currency. Fiat currency and central banking are quite possibly the two greatest evils and most insidious creations in the world. Central banks have been the manipulators of the world and fiat currency is theirs and governments weapons. Create money from nothing and you have the unfortunate reality of truly having nothing. Doesn't always come to nothing immediately, but it will. It's unavoidable. Worth remembering.


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Rbrtkln
post Jan 10 2012, 05:22 PM
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While I am not real keen on how the economy works, let me ask this. How do you get rid of the national debt? One way is to stop spending right? Stop Spending = lost jobs right? How does that help our economy?


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mmi16
post Jan 10 2012, 11:29 PM
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One simple thought about what the Economy is -

Money changing hands for goods and services.

No spending, no goods or services change hands, no economy


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vomit
post Jan 10 2012, 11:35 PM
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Fiat currency has no backing (no substance behind it); hence inflation, boom & bust cycles. For most of the 1800s America was on the gold standard, and a dollar at the beginning of the century had about the same amount of value at the end of the century.

I suggest Aaron Russo's movie, "America: From Freedom to Facism" for enlightenment.

http://freedomtofascism.com/

and Griffin's book "the Creature from Jekyll Island".

http://www.amazon.com/Creature-Jekyll-Isla...e/dp/0912986212

You'll know about money than you would ever want to.


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CMeyers
post Jan 11 2012, 12:58 AM
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QUOTE(vomit @ Jan 10 2012, 11:35 PM) *
and Griffin's book "the Creature from Jekyll Island".

http://www.amazon.com/Creature-Jekyll-Isla...e/dp/0912986212

Undoubtedly one of the most important books ever written.


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Maw
post Jan 11 2012, 10:53 AM
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QUOTE(Rbrtkln @ Jan 10 2012, 05:22 PM) *
While I am not real keen on how the economy works, let me ask this. How do you get rid of the national debt? One way is to stop spending right? Stop Spending = lost jobs right? How does that help our economy?


Details, details . . . blink.gif


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CMeyers
post Jan 11 2012, 12:38 PM
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QUOTE(Rbrtkln @ Jan 10 2012, 05:22 PM) *
While I am not real keen on how the economy works, let me ask this. How do you get rid of the national debt? One way is to stop spending right? Stop Spending = lost jobs right? How does that help our economy?

Does job inflation help the economy? Government created jobs are jobs that wouldn't exist in an efficient, free market. Mainly because there is no funding in existence for them. To fund them, the government borrows more money that it doesn't have (creates it out of thin air through the federal reserve) which leads to inflation. Inflation of both the money supply and the job market. Not every job is a good job... And, the idea that the only way to create jobs is through government spending, or that government spending creates as many jobs as claimed is false to begin with.


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Beck
post Jan 11 2012, 02:56 PM
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QUOTE(CMeyers @ Jan 11 2012, 09:38 AM) *
Does job inflation help the economy? Government created jobs are jobs that wouldn't exist in an efficient, free market. Mainly because there is no funding in existence for them. To fund them, the government borrows more money that it doesn't have (creates it out of thin air through the federal reserve) which leads to inflation. Inflation of both the money supply and the job market. Not every job is a good job... And, the idea that the only way to create jobs is through government spending, or that government spending creates as many jobs as claimed is false to begin with.

I always found it to be ridiculous - this state of mind where people think that jobs are the most important things in the world. Yes, they have their value in the society we have built, but the fact that people would sacrifice anything and everything for jobs seems foolish to me. I'm not accusing you of being one of those people, I'm just making a statement. One thing the majority of not only America, but other industrialized nations around the world as well, need to learn - is that believe it or not, there are things in the world that are actually more important than jobs. The Sanctity of Life for example. People toss that aside like it's worthless all in the name of jobs. This is not the state of mind we should have, it is destructive.

This post has been edited by Beck: Jan 11 2012, 02:57 PM


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Temecula Seasonal Precipitation 2014-2015: 0.45" (-0.33")
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My Seasonal Precipitation 2014-2015: 0.81"

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QUOTE(wingsovernc @ Sep 13 2014, 04:20 PM) *
You're cute when you're whining Becky :)
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mmi16
post Jan 11 2012, 04:11 PM
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QUOTE(Beck @ Jan 11 2012, 02:56 PM) *
I always found it to be ridiculous - this state of mind where people think that jobs are the most important things in the world. Yes, they have their value in the society we have built, but the fact that people would sacrifice anything and everything for jobs seems foolish to me. I'm not accusing you of being one of those people, I'm just making a statement. One thing the majority of not only America, but other industrialized nations around the world as well, need to learn - is that believe it or not, there are things in the world that are actually more important than jobs. The Sanctity of Life for example. People toss that aside like it's worthless all in the name of jobs. This is not the state of mind we should have, it is destructive.

You are welcome to starve someplace without shelter without a job or some other form of activity that provides food and shelter. Jobs in the REAL world are what provide the opportunities to obtain food and shelter. It is not the job itself that is important, it is providing that food and shelter that is the basis of our worth since we, as a society, stopped being hunter gatherer society many millennia ago.


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hckyplayer8
post Jan 11 2012, 04:42 PM
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QUOTE(Beck @ Jan 9 2012, 06:13 PM) *
Truthfully, and please everybody, don't take this as pessimism - I don't think it will ever go away. It's inevitable that it has become as large as it has, and, like gas prices - it's not gonna go back to the way it was before. America is on a gradual downward path now, and has been since the 1980s. It became steeper in 2003 with the Iraq War. Again, not trying to be pessimistic or fatalistic. But all great empires must fall, that's not something that's thousands (or even hundreds) of years into the future. Our society was not built to last, so what's happening now is happening.

But please everybody, feel free to share your ideas on "the debt crisis". The above is just what has been shown to me and my conclusions.



I agree with the above.

Too many idiotic mistakes. Moving jobs to foreign countries, Wall Street lining Congress's pockets, Wars, foreign aid...ect

Just sucks that its gonna likely happen during my generations life time.

This post has been edited by hckyplayer8: Jan 11 2012, 05:00 PM


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Beck
post Jan 11 2012, 06:13 PM
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QUOTE(mmi16 @ Jan 11 2012, 01:11 PM) *
You are welcome to starve someplace without shelter without a job or some other form of activity that provides food and shelter. Jobs in the REAL world are what provide the opportunities to obtain food and shelter. It is not the job itself that is important, it is providing that food and shelter that is the basis of our worth since we, as a society, stopped being hunter gatherer society many millennia ago.

Yeah, I know all of that. But guess what - they're still not to be placed above all living things. I stated that I know how jobs are important, but they don't have a place above the sanctity of life. Plus, you could always just grow your own food (unless you live in the Arctic). This idea that "the more you consume, the happier you become" is false. Consumerism and fundamentalism have had profoundly negative effects on the entire world (the one you hear about the most is the environment).

QUOTE(hckyplayer8 @ Jan 11 2012, 01:42 PM) *
I agree with the above.

Too many idiotic mistakes. Moving jobs to foreign countries, Wall Street lining Congress's pockets, Wars, foreign aid...ect

Just sucks that its gonna likely happen during my generations life time.

Wait, you agree with my post or mmi16's?

This post has been edited by Beck: Jan 11 2012, 06:14 PM


--------------------
Temecula Seasonal Precipitation 2014-2015: 0.45" (-0.33")
Normal to-date precipitation: 0.78"
Season began July 1st, 2014.

My Seasonal Precipitation 2014-2015: 0.81"

Temecula Weather Pages

QUOTE(wingsovernc @ Sep 13 2014, 04:20 PM) *
You're cute when you're whining Becky :)
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hckyplayer8
post Jan 11 2012, 07:05 PM
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QUOTE(Beck @ Jan 11 2012, 06:13 PM) *
Wait, you agree with my post or mmi16's?


Yours.


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Rbrtkln
post Jan 14 2012, 09:31 PM
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QUOTE(Beck @ Jan 11 2012, 02:56 PM) *
I always found it to be ridiculous - this state of mind where people think that jobs are the most important things in the world. Yes, they have their value in the society we have built, but the fact that people would sacrifice anything and everything for jobs seems foolish to me. I'm not accusing you of being one of those people, I'm just making a statement. One thing the majority of not only America, but other industrialized nations around the world as well, need to learn - is that believe it or not, there are things in the world that are actually more important than jobs. The Sanctity of Life for example. People toss that aside like it's worthless all in the name of jobs. This is not the state of mind we should have, it is destructive.


So then our economy is fine then? 10% unemployment? Unfortunately, in this world, most people need to work to eat and live.


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